Circumcision

[asterroc]

B/c some people on my friendslist have discussed this in the last few months, here's a CNN article on the dropping rate of infant male circumcision. Surprisingly, only around 57% of male babies are circumcised at birth in the US, and we're more than most of the world.

Comments

[greenanimal.livejournal.com]

I saw that article at work today, I always read cnn.com when I'm bored. I'm an intactivist - hehe - I love the word. I posted about it and a link to a website a while back http://greenanimal.livejournal.com/69784.html

[zandperl.livejournal.com]

For me, in the end it comes down to minor benefits for an elective surgery that carries risks, and which the recipient didn't elect to take himself. Elective procedures require consent. Not only are minors incapable of giving consent legally, but below a certain level of cognitive development they're not even capable of understanding what their parents are giving their consent to.

Next question: What about braces?

[dirkcjelli.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure there are, indeed, minor benefits... I'm skeptical of preliminary testing (and this is one more ad hoc explanation to throw on the pile of false past assertions like 'it will curtail masturbation')

[zandperl.livejournal.com]

I'm skeptical of the HIV claims. I am not skeptical of the smegma/hygeinic claims. It is the latter that I referred to when I said there were minor benefits. If it really did reduce the chance of contracting HIV I would call that a major benefit. In the light of only minor benefits, I would not do this elective surgery. Similarly, I'm sure removing the clitoral hood would help with female hygeine, but I wouldn't want to do that either. If I were convinced that circumcision prevented contraction of HIV 100% of the time, I'd be tempted to do it, but I'm still not sure that I would.

not the singular form of data, I understand...

[dirkcjelli.livejournal.com]

An infant died, slowly and unpleasantly, of an infection and septic shock after an ordinary circumcision. (http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/06/snip.php)

yay anecdotes

[zandperl.livejournal.com]

Huh. If you followed the links from that page, there was a study that apparently the most sensitive parts of the penis are removed with the circumcision - that one's non-anecdotal, but not sure if it was repeated or not.

For another anecdote on circumcision horrors, see the John/Joan case.

Re: yay anecdotes

[dirkcjelli.livejournal.com]

I was leaving "reduces mens sexual pleasure" out of the discussion, but I understand that to be factual.

Re: yay anecdotes

[zandperl.livejournal.com]

While I had assumed so as well, it never hurts to have evidence. Meanwhile, I wonder if greater sensitivity would mean guys want sex more often b/c it's so good, or less often b/c they're so satisfied. A study of *that* would be highly amusing - and really difficult to do w/o biases.

braces

[demigoth.livejournal.com]

Hrm, that's an interesting question. Of course today I'm glad my parents made me (well, I eventually consented, after much pressure) get braces when I was in middle school. But there was a lot of pain and frustration involved, and I suspect that the "jasper jumpers" they installed for a year either caused or contributed to my jaw-joint problems. Of course the orthodontist denied this could be the case, and I know correlation does not equal causation, but it was pretty suspicious that I started getting jaw pain and joint wackiness soon after installation. Guh.

Interestingly, my younger brother didn't get braces, although I think he was briefly offered but not pressured like I was. Dad said it was more important for girls to have pretty teeth than boys. Maybe he was right, but I find that sorta sad.

As for circumcision, I know boys can be dirty (hee hee, I never said *I* wasn't a tad sexist), but I think circumcision is kinda outdated. Let a man choose. Anecdotally, I know a fellow who chose to get snipped at around age 18 because his foreskin was causing masturbation to be painful. Now THAT is a good reason to have the procedure.

Re: braces

[zandperl.livejournal.com]

Oh man, I wonder if he told his parents that! Of course at age 18 he might not have had to tell them anything, but still... Or even what he told his doctor - it's perfectly legitimate to discuss that with your doctor, but how many of us would be comfortable doing so?

Braces are supposed to have health benefits in addition to cosmetic ones, but I don't entirely understand what those benefits are. I agreed to them when I was a kid, I'm now skeptical over whether I'd do it for my children. I had a palate expander and it was HORRIBLE - anchors onto the molars and someone else shoves a little key into your mouth that turns to push them apart and split your whole soft childlike skull apart just an eentsy bit each time and since as a kid your head's still soft up the middle it's biologically ok and you'll grow it all in later and presto, a year of pain later you have a head big enough for all those teeth that're going to grow in.

If I could be convinced of the medical benefits to normal braces I'd do it. If there's no medical benefits I'm uncertain - it's a trade between having good teeth which makes you more socially acceptable as an adult, and having braces which makes you less socially acceptable as a kid/teen - I'd do it if my partner wanted it. I don't think I could be convinced that hours of pain (think of the worst headache you've ever had, on par with a migraine, but going from the roof of your mouth to the tippy top of your skull) and crying, inflicted by the child's PARENTS for chrissakes (it was my Mom for me, my Dad couldn't bring himself to do it), every night for a year, is better than pulling a few teeth with novocaine.

Re: braces

[demigoth.livejournal.com]

I think the fellow did tell his parents. His mom is an RN. :)

There weren't any really concrete medical benefits for my braces (resulting or expected), but one of my front teeth was REALLY crooked. And I have pretty big front teeth, so the quality-of-life issue was valid enough for me. In fact, I recently had the formerly-crooked one ground down a bit to match the other one (dentist did it for free, hooray). It's still just a tad crooked but now that they are the same length it's not really noticeable. So I guess my case was mostly (if not purely) cosmetic, because I too am skeptical of the other claimed improvements.

The jasper-jumper (torture) devices were supposed to correct my overbite and align my teeth better for improved eating, or something. I got a little of the former and a bit of the opposite of the latter, in addition to the aforementioned TMJ problems. These "benefits" were in exchange for a year of only being able to open my mouth about half of its potential range and the additional pain of installation and adjustment of the devices on top of the usual monthly re-wiring and tightening of the braces. I can still freak some people out by yawning with my mouth barely open. And I was furious that I had no real input in that particular decision and felt misled about the results and benefits.

I guess mouths are complicated things and they're all different, but in light of our experiences and others I've heard about, there's at least a small degree of quackery and misrepresentation in the orthodontry(?) industry. Man, yours sounded like way more of a torture device than the things I had. My pain was at least restricted mostly to the lower half of my skull. I too would have a hard time deciding to do all that in lieu of just getting a few teeth yanked later.

Another anecdote: after a particularly painful adjustment appointment, I couldn't eat solid food for three or four days. I got into my dad's supply of slimfast because whatever I was drinking wasn't as nutritious and was getting boring. He yelled at me for it because it was expensive, but I fired right back with an update on my pain status and that surely he could shell out a few more bucks on top of the $2.5k he was spending because I was a girl and girls need pretty teeth. My but he turned penitent real fast. :)

[weirdlilfaechld.livejournal.com]

The only medical reason I have ever seen for braces is temporomandibular joint disfunction (TMJ), but even though I know several people with that disorder none of them have had braces for that reason.

[zandperl.livejournal.com]

Well, perhaps straight teeth are less prone to cavities? Or maybe having teeth better aligned for chewing helps with your digestion, or makes you less likely to get gum disease from food being shoved against your gums, or something? I know in the case of my palate expander, it was not only cosmetic but also so I wouldn't need teeth pulled at a later date, but I'm not sure that the palate expander was preferable over tooth-pulling.